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Permission to use or quote from this transcript must be obtained from the Delaware Agricultural Museum and Village.

This is an interview with J. Edward McIlvaine (EM) of Georgetown, Delaware. The interview was conducted on May 26, 1990, at Mr. McIlvaine's home. The interviewer is Jude Feurer (JF) representing the Delaware Agricultural Museum for the Delaware Department of Agriculture's Century Farm oral history project.

JF:Mr. McIlvaine I understand there was a woodlot on your original farm property. Is that true? Timber?

EM:Oh yes, yes, yes. The total acreage of the farm is around one hundred and fifty acres and the total woodland is around ninety acres.

JF:What were the trees used for?

EM:Well this, we have eh..... Let's start eh.... In this woodlot there's a stream, and I'll just use this side and not count the farm, and in the stream there's what they call lowland which is branch. And the trees that originally grown in there was mostly gum and holly. Now holly was a very important product because it had red berries and then the holly leaves were cut off in the fall and made for holly wreaths that were sold and shipped everywhere. I mean, you know, the natural holly with a natural berries. And that was.... This not just pertains to the area here where there's streams and lowland and branches, it was the industry that a lot of people really made some money. Really what they used to call it, they made their Christmas money. And it was very extensive used. The purpose and the way they... The purpose you had to do this, you had two different types of holly trees. You had the one that had the leaves and then you had the other tree that was beautiful and the leaves offen this type of tree was used to form the wreath, the leaf on the hoop, see. Separate. You laid them just like, like this. It's laid in layers. And then the other type of tree was the tree that had berries. So what you did, you'd cut these short limbs off and then you'd have to trim the leaves around these berries. And then you would bunch these berries together. And then you would place them on the wreath on top. Say here's your.... Your leaves were here and then your berries you'd put on top. And then, of course, you had this fine wire which they call holly wire and then you twisted it and then you pulled it in the wood hoop. That called it a hoop what you put the... And that was made of.... You always got kind of soft so then that would hold the wire to keep it from slipping, see. And so you'd go around..... You usually put... The hoops was about twelve inches..... Let's see about ten inches across in diameter. No about eight inches the hoop were in diameter, across. Well you know with a circle.

JF:How wide was the hoop?

EM:Well that's what I'm talking about.

JF:No the thickness of the wood though.

EM:Well it was just eh..... The rim?

JF:The rim, yeah.

EM:Well it was just like...

JF:Just like your little finger.

EM:Oh about a half-inch, I mean. It depends on eh.... It'd be a half-inch and maybe be..... And of course you had to bring those two things together and wire them like this, you know, to make your hoop stable. And then you went on with that. The natural berries were eh...... They were eh.... You used the.... The way the family worked this, they'd go out in the daytime and they'd get their holly and the berries. And then in the evenings is when they would make the wreaths. And the family would. You know the whole family would be. Lots of time the husband and maybe a child they could make the hoops. So it was a sort of a family working together for Christmas.

JF:Was it a project that your family did?

EM:Oh yes. Oh yes.

JF:What can you remember about that? As a child were you helping out with that?

EM:Oh yes, I..... Well not early, no. But my mother did. And here's what they did too. They..... Here's eh.... In the beginning, as I remember, what they had they had people that would come around and pick the wreaths up every morning. The wreaths that you would make the night before. And what they used at that time was a one-horse wagon, a dearborn, and it had a kind of cover over it and they'd just go from farm to farm and pick the wreaths that the farmers had made during that night.

JF:You said a one-horse wagon, a dearborn? What did that look like? Did it have sides one it?

EM:Oh yes, oh yes. A dearborn was eh.... Well it had rails on it and then it had a cover. I mean you could...... It was a diversified piece of equipment. You could use it for anything. It had a top you could kind of put on it. I don't mean a hack now.

JF:I don't know what a hack is either.

EM:Well a hack is something similar to the same thing only that they used to travel in. It was completely enclosed. It had curtains you sort of pulled down. It's a winter-type thing. And you..... Seats in there. I don't know just what, but they were movable. It was a piece of covered transportation that was horse-drawn that was a utility. It could be used for winter or summer. That's the best way to state that. Because if it had curtains you could travel in the winter and also it'd be open up on the summer. And it had a top on it. And if it rained, why you had some protection there. That was the type of equipment what they called a hack.

JF:About how big would a hack be?

EM:Oh a hack eh.... It was eh.... Well see the width of any horse-drawn carriage or your buggy or your hack was only oh about five feet, you know. I think it is. Well it'd be the same width that your tire tracks are today on your car.

JF:Okay.

EM:I don't know what that is, but all your.... Your width of your car wheels on your automobile today and the width of most all wagons, dearborns, hacks, carriages that width was always standard. Just like your standard width is on your automobiles today.

JF:How about the length then?

EM:Well the length. That was dependent on the eh.... The length was eh.... Well there was different lengths.
Just like your trucks are or your car. You got cars of different lengths. So you had eh..... Your hack was longer than your carriage. A carriage, you know what that is?

JF:You could fit just a few people in.

EM:Yeah and they had a top.

JF:Right, okay.

EM:And then another thing, the special equipment, when they side curtains you could take off in summer to give you air. In the winter and then the carriage also had a front what was called a storm-front. It had some isinglass that would close the front in. Then you had a slot where you pulled your reins through the slot inside where you could guide your horse and still be able to stay out of the weather.

JF:Would the carriage be loke a sports car today, a two seater?

EM:Well, no, no, no. All carriages were single.... Wait a minute now. Were single and your buggies were..... Course your buggies was two different styles of them. One you'd get one what didn't have any top and then you had another one that had kind of a fancy top that came over, you know, to keep the sun offen you and all. But the..... Now what was that other question you asked me? I was just trying to think here a minute.

JF:Well we were talking about the hollies, but you were describing the hacks and the dearborns. Did they have two axles?

EM:Oh yeah everything had two two axles.

JF:Everything had two axles.

EM:You two axles was eh.... Here's your two axles here. This is the rear. Well this axle, say this is stationary. Then up here, your front ones, you had another axle that came down and that's what you turned. See and you had.... Here's your, alright, this is a good example right here. Here's your ......

JF:These are your eyeglasses you're using.

EM:Eyeglasses. This is the shafts. Here's where your horses were. See. And then your shafts come up here and they hooked on to the vehicle. And then your front wheels of all your wagons, dearborns, anything, and then they moved see.

JF:Okay.

EM:????? Course they was spaced like that, but that's when you turn. And they turn the horse with the shafts. That's what guided this turn. And when you want to make a turn they turned the front wheels with the animal or whatever you want to call it. Or with the reins. You'd rein. You'd pull the horses rein, see. And he had this bridle and then he'd go the way you'd pull it. Course they had some language that you could use out on the farm that they knew which way to go. But you didn't use it on the transportation vehicles. That all had reins, other reins. And your double reins.... Now some of these transportation things, well they would have two horses to. Course that had what they called a pole there that eh, just up here, and you had a different kind of a harness and these two horses would be tied together on some types of pleasure vehicles too.

JF:They'd be tied together in a side-by-side fashion?

EM:Eh, well you'd be a double seat.... Well it represent what a bus represents today against a private car today. Things you could carry more, maybe five or six people in.

JF:Okay.

EM:It was that type of vehicle. They called them hacks or ?????? It was a transportation that you had more, could carry more than two people. See most of your carriages only had one seat and your buggies. You could set three. That would be about your limit. But then you had the other type. This hack would..... You had another back seat see.

JF:So the dearborn was used mainly for transporting goods?

EM:It was for commercial farm. They were used.... It was a one-horse vehicle that you used a lot to carry things to.... From the farm to the town particular. Well any farm product that was used for human consumption, you know. Well as an illustration, we had a peach orchard here. And we'd have eh..... My father was an invalid and I had eh.... So we'd pick up about twenty-five, I think it would hold about twenty-five or thirty baskets, and maybe we'd go Millsboro this morning. When I was little my job I'd go knock on the doors and see if they wanted any peaches. And then they'd come out, the wife would come out and look at them and they'd pick out a basket of peaches. In the meantime we'd have maybe one or two people picking peaches. Then that afternoon we'd go to Georgetown and go door to door. And knock on the door and then I ask them if they'd have some peoples today. And then all the ladies would come out and they'd look at them. You know how housewives are, but they're alright. But I used to..... See a lot of people would kind of cap the basket off. They'd be pitching the peaches, you know. But we always taken our apples or peaches back, our baskets back. When I was picking I always put some big peaches in the bottom of the basket too, you know. Then you dump them and they'd say, "Well them peaches is just as big to the bottom as they are to the top". But I mean that was just eh.... But I mean some people would try to sell the product by the top and put a lot of big peaches and in the bottom put little ones, but I didn't do that. Or we didn't. I mean we always put a few nice bigs because most of the time you taken your basket back. But that was eh.... And everybody said, you know, I didn't have any trouble selling them.

JF:So you carried these thirty baskets on the dearborn?

EM:Yeah, yeah, and it was drawn by one horse. One animal, let's say a horse or mule or whatever you'd driven with.

JF:So when the dearborns would come by the next morning and pick up the holly wreaths that the families had made the night before, was that like under contract? A family had a.....

EM:No, no, it wasn't any..... It was just eh..... It wasn't any..... You could eh.... No contract. Now there was later on the holly berries, as the demand for wreaths increased, they had artifical berries that you would use. Now that in that way you was obligated, it was not in a contract, but you had dealers that would buy wreaths and of course they would furnish these artifical berries. There was more of them used in the later years of the wreath production. Course a lot of them made with artifical berries because berries..... As the demand for them increased berries were..... Well sometimes it wasn't always dependable we'll say. Now that was one thing. Now the other thing that the artifical had and one disadvantage of the riper berries if you hit this wreath against something some of these berries would fall off, the natural berry, you know. And these artifical was eh..... Well they was made of something, anyway you could hit, they wouldn't rattle off we'll say. They were permanent. Now the stem of the natural berry would stay put, but these natural berries they were little and they were out on the little twigs and in packing them up.... See they were..... All these wreaths were packed in large boxes and then they were either trucked or.... I guess originally they were sent by rail to the city and later on, of course, they were sent by trucks.

JF:What was your job when you were growing up in this wreath making process?

EM:My job was to cut the holly. You had to take a..... Where the holly trees that had the...... The wrapping hollys when they were green, you know, you broke them off. You had a little knife and you could just break them. What you did you taken a bag and you tied it.... Put it up around here and you had a hoop in here to hold this bag off and you went up a tree and you just pulled this limb down and put it in this bag.

JF:So as you cut you threw it into a bag.

EM:And that was a container. And then you brought that up to..... If you got one bag or two bags then when you got done then you brought it up to the house and then it was..... They had to be placed on the hoop. Now what they did then, a lot of them they would, one person in the family would bunch eh...... Well just to use as an illustration, say this was a little bunch of holly there see, this here. And then you'd have another bunch, you'd come up like this. And then you'd wrap.... This would be your hoop here and then you'd wrap that wire tight. And then you'd come up..... And then if you wanted a bunch of berries of this you'd put four on the leaf. If you wanted a bunch of berries, now you'd put your bunch of berries up here and up here. Course it had stems on it too and then you'd fasten that up and then you'd come up another bunch of berries, a bunch of leaves, we'll call them leaves, branches that's the proper name. Then you'd put it up so that it would cover the stem of the bunch that had the berries on it, see. Then that'd make your perfect wreath.

JF:So the leaves covered the berry stems?

EM:The berry stems and then all that was exposed was the red berries.

JF:Your job was in cutting the holly branches.

EM:Yeah, mostly.

JF:Mostly what you did. In your family then when you brought the branches back who worked on making the wreath?

EM:Well, eh, the ladies most of the time made the wreaths. Mother used to make them. And then of course Mrs. McIlvaine she was very good. She could make a wreath in four minutes.

JF:Mrs. McIlvaine could make a wreath in FOUR MINUTES? How could she do it that fast?

EM:We what they did.... To do that what they did somebody would bunch the holly. I mean if you had bunches of... Well, we'll say this is holly here and you had this in a bunch and these stems and maybe you had a bunch that would cover about this much of your bunch so you just put that bunch on there and wrapped that around that hoop. You wrap your wire around the stems and fasten them. When you wrapped that would fasten the stems to the rim. And then you'd have another ...... Holly wire was very flexible and it was tough and it was small and the holly wire would cut into the wood rim. You rims would be.... Well they wanted to be sorta.... Well you usually got green, you know , soft, and when you pulled it why that would cut in and that would hold. So when you then you'd put you another bunch on, well then if you needed a bunch of berries then wrap it around. So it wasn't eh.... Your holly was placed already for you to place on the wreath. Somebody would do that. Now if you had to go and get your holly out of the bag and make it, you couldn't. But there'd be someone placing holly to the number of pieces and sizes necessary. So it wasn't too much eh.... The biggest job was making the hoops. That wasn't no easy job. You had to go out and cut twigs. A certain type of twig and make it a certain size.

JF:Did you make hoops?

EM:Oh yeah, I made hoops.

JF:Tell me that process. You went out and found....

EM:Well, you went out in the woods. There's certain types of the small wood that would be oh about the size of your finger. It grew in branches and then you'd cut those up and bring them up, you know, and cut them to your length. Some of them you would get tall and you'd get two or three pieces. Or just most anything, it would be a soft wood that you could bend. Flexible, not a brittle wood, but a wood that would be.... You couldn't use pine. Pine wasn't that good. But you had other types. There's oak type or several type that's flexible we'll say. The limbs had to be flexible to bend and of course they had to be green. You couldn't take seasoned wood and do it.

JF:How long did this process go on. Was it like a month long activity?

EM:No, they usually started it after Thanksgiving or the first of December. And then of course they run it about three weeks I guess. See these things had to be boxed and shipped to wherever. I guess most any...... I don't where, everywhere, you know. And course they were used for Christmas decorations so they had to be ready before Christmas, you know. They usually started making them right after Thanksgiving which was the period of time. And of course a lot of that too.... Now if the weather was warm, the weather had to be chill..... You know normal winter weather or fall or winter weather because your holly wouldn't look.... You know it would wither. It would lose it's eh... Some of it's shine. This had to be done in.... Because I know time the weather and they wouldn't let you make no wreaths cause the weather was too warm. You know the holly didn't keep for putting it in boxes, large boxes.

JF:So you say the holly was a tree on the woodlot or the woodland. What other kind of trees?

EM:Well the main woodland was mostly pine and oak and hickory.

JF:What were those woods used for, those different trees?

EM:Well most all those.... Well during one period, you don't have it much now, but during the early when I grew-up, well twenties and even in the thirties, see this whole area had a lot pine. There was a lot of wooded area in pine. And part of them would be eh, well, originally back of the thing in history that you want, these were cut in the woods at length. Different lengths. And a lot of them were used and the purpose of..... Some of them were used for piling where they would be driven down for wherever they used piling, you know, in wet areas to build things on. And then there was another source. They were used for mine props. And the more they go in and mine, well coal, etc, you know, to hold up the..... They called them props to keep from caving in, you know, where they dig out the coal. And how these things got transported on the farm and the road, they used to haul by here a lot. This area here there was a lot of pine during the period and other areas too. They'd have a..... That was all done by, at that time, by animal and human power, human energy I'll say and animal power. And they were cut down by hand with saws and then they were cut to the..... Trimmed up and then they had what they called a timber court. You know what that is?

JF:A timber court? What's a timber court.

EM:Well let me get you a pencil. I can draw it better.

JF:Tell me while you're drawing.

EM:Well I'm trying to make a..... Well I can't do it... Let me do it this way. I got it now, I'll do it this way. Then I'll get it. This would represent a wheel on each side see. ??? the frame. There's an axle. But your wheel would be fastened on here and this thing would go up like this, axle would, and come down like this. And here you'd have another wheel. See what I mean?

JF:Okay.

EM:Alright. Then when you got this.... Well this is your wheel. I'll just put that, and here's this part that... A part and then you'd run a tongue out here and this would be, best illustration, this would be for this part. And then you had a piece of wood, round wood here and you had chains on it. Well, you would lower, and this is like a hinge on here with wood.... It's pretty hard for me to tell you, it helt this in. Anyway you put this pole back like this and then you wrapped chains around this and then around the log here, that piece you were moving, and then you had a mule that you'd pull this back and tie it down to this tongue on this cart and that would lift the logs up see.

JF:Oh okay.

EM: And then that's the way you would move it. That was one
way. Then there was another way that you moved short logs, like twelve foot logs that they had the same purpose only it had a beam here that you brought back here and then you pulled the chain up and wrapped around and then you had a rope like a pulley and you'd pull this back down and that would raise the logs up. And then you'd tie this down on the rest of this cart which would hook on into the front two wheels of your other, of your wagon cart. It worked like... It raised the logs up.

JF:Okay.

EM:Now this was done on.... This kind of cart was used on all logs that was used for lumber. They'd only be about twelve, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen feet long, see. Now the other type of movement would be the type of log that you moved for mine props. And they were shipped.... They was then you had a derrick and you loaded them on a boxcar, open boxcars, and they were shipped to wherever they was, their destination.

JF:Okay so the pine would be used for piling.

EM:Piling yeah. And all..... Most of the pine was used for what they called mine props. Oak wasn't eh..... Well oak was eh.... I think pine had a little more flexible. Oak was knotty. Pine would grow straight. It didn't have a lot of limbs. It was not known to have two much knots. See all these trees of pine would be up tall, you know, so it's free of any eh..... Well what you call deficiency, we'll say. Now if you had, now oak had a lot of big limbs and knots and oak was pretty hard. And, of course, if you got a tree out here.... I'll talk with you about it later, but eh....

JF:Was oak and hickory then used in building purposes?

EM:Yeah, see eh..... Hickory wasn't. Hickory wood wasn't eh.... It was used.... Wait a minute. I got it now. Hickory wood was used more for making axe handles. Well white oak, the white oak could be used, it could be split up and used for making handles, axe handles, things that you use, hammer handles and things like that. Hickory was eh.... Oh, there wasn't too much hickory. Hickories they could be used for, sawed and made in any type farm buildings and things. The only with that is when it got hard you couldn't get a nail through it, but when it was green you had to furnish it. I mean, well your pine you could saw pieces of lumber, what you wanted to store and you know it would be easy to nail to. But the hickory wasn't.

JF:Now there was a sawmill located on your farm property?

EM:Well no, what eh..... Yes, yes, down here we had on this farm we had a water-powered sawmill.

JF:Water-powered sawmill.

EM:Yeah, it was down here. Water power was the first energy that was used to, you know, to help the settlers. Water power was a very important thing in the communities.

JF:Did you observe people using that sawmill?

EM:Oh yes, I've eh..... No not the water-powered sawmill no. No it wasn't..... But the same principles was used when they come with the steam. Right across the field here I can show you where there was a sawmill that had a big bricked up eh..... See that was steam power. You sawmills...... Your energy things you had your water power and your steam power was two energies that kept things going. And of course the windmill helped a little with pumping water. But the two energies until gasoline come out was steam power and water power.

JF:How did the..... How was the steam made at the sawmill?

EM:Well, you had an engine and you had fire. And then you had a place that you'd put water. You had a broiler... I can't think....

JF:A boiler?

EM:The boiler, that's right. You'd tell so much water in this boiler and then under this boiler, around this boiler, is where you had your..... You built your fire. You used wood and that would cause heat. And then it would boil that water to steam and your steam it would be, well this steam thing went in compressed. It was compressed with the heat. I can't tell you how.

JF:Like a giant pressure cooker of some kind?

EM:Well, yeah it'd be just like.... Well, I'll tell you what. I'll tell you how it acted. It had just like when you put a pan of water on the stove and put your lid on it and then you put heat to it and the first thing you know that lid will raise up. So the steam engine was the same principle but I can't..... It had cylinders. It had cylinders and when you put this heat in this water and this steam would go up in a cylinder. Then you had a valve. I don't know what... You'd pull this valve and then this pressure would hit this cylinder and then that would push it and sometimes then it would be some process there. Well there used to be two cylinders too. And then it would come back and that's the way the steam thing worked. It had a big flywheel on there. A steam engine and then you could put a belt on there and run a wheat thresher or anything. It moved that way, big wheels. Well it's the same principle that the railroad used, you know. The railroad had steam power, but I'm not too much of an expert on it. I worked around them. But it's water heated to steam and contained.... Where you put this water and this steam it was airtight and this pressure would, they're be enough pressure in there that would push a cylinder and give power and ????? Now I don't know much about the mechanical part of it but I know I've seen them work. There was a little..... You had your furnace, a long thing here where you had your heat, and then on top there was a thing, you know, in comparison a big .... And I guess that's where your compressor was. I mean where this steam..... I guess the steam would..... I'm not familiar with just the process of that. They used water. My first job with the steam engine for the thresher there used to be the water-boy. You had to haul... They used a lot of water. I used to..... Three or four barrels of water, I mean you just kept one person hauling water to this stationary steam engines that you threshed with. Just about.

JF:That was a big job then for a young boy.

EM:I've done that yeah.

JF:Then a steam engine would be used to run the sawblades?

EM:Sawblades, wheat threshing. Steam engines, there's portable steam engines worked on all threshing. The even had..... Some of them, I think, plowed, but I don't think much. I wouldn't even mention that. But it was used in all of threshing, any kind of necessary power that was necessary to be used in agricultural areas. Where you needed belt power to move - like a saw. You know what they call a circular saw that you'd saw lumber with. That way you'd thresh all your grains at that time. That was steam. It was the same system that the steam engine went on transportation. See you had the steam engine on the railroad. That was your first steam engine.

JF:In the sawmil what would happen with a big log?

EM:You'd have a carrier and you roll this log up and your...

JF:Off of that timber cart?

EM:Well no, well what you had you had a timber yard and timber cart just brought the logs and then they'd dump them and then they'd get more. And they were unloaded close to the sawmill, you know. And then it was moved eh.... I don't, well they had a horse to pull the logs up, I don't know. It depends on how big a yard it was. You know, I mean they'd drop it right on the regular where you roll it. But most times they had that. But then they had to be moved on there. That had to be used when these.... The cart I was telling you about where you'd back it up and put your chain on and lift it up and pull this part down and you'd ????? and back it and haul it up and put it on what they call a carrier base. Sawmills had a carrier went back and forth, you know to move the log so you could saw it and make the board. And then it had what they..... you might say a ramp here. They had to be elevated and then you had to haul these logs and put them up on this mound we'll call and then they's rolled over on them because it had to be up about a couple feet to make it so the carrier could work, you know, where you saw and everything. It had to be moved sometimes. What they would do they'd have these yards and made people, whether it was using commercially or for private ???, they'd just haul timber in there all the time and dump it out and put a log underneath of it and had to pull the chain out. And when they got ready to use it why they had this cart that they'd just load it up and pull it up and carry it up to the saw. To the sawmill, I mean on the area that they dumped the logs and they would be where they could be rolled directly by hand directly over to the saw see. See the logs had to be this-a-way and you saw..... This carrier had to go like this see. This is your saw turning, cutting. This is the carrier. You'd work it back and forth. You had a lever and that was done by power too. The more you pulled your lever back to control you log on the saw, the speed that you would go through that log, and that was determined by the size of the log. A small log you could just rip right through. And if you had one that thick why you had to go easy with it. So the speed of the carrier that made the board or the two by four depended on the size of the log.

JF:Now some of the wood that was cut was shipped out you said on trains or wagons or whatever for purposes. What about the cut lumber? What were the boards used for?

EM:Well they were eh..... You had eh.... They were used in eh.... They were sold. They were used for building houses. Why this house here. The framing in here I carried it to the sawmill and had it sawed. So they were used for building.

JF:More locally?

EM:Well, yeah well, some of it would be sold eh.... I think they eh.... I imagine originally, I think, they used to cut, they'd load it on cars, you know boxcars. They had open boxcars that could load lumber, logs on, even trees. I haven't got to that yet, but it was used for buildings in communities and some of it was shipped to, I think, away from here at one time. But, of course, recently.....

JF:Have we pretty much done in the sawmill then?

EM:I think that's pretty well covered. I mean it was a thing that was very useful. In fact without the eh.... I mean if you look back when you think that the..... Here's the important thing - the sawmill and the gristmill was first used by water power. Water power.

JF:I want to get into the gristmill next. Was that on this property?

EM:Oh yeah I'll show you right where the gristmill was and I can show you the sawmill was located. Of course there's nothing there now you know. Yeah I can show you where the gristmill was. Of course they're not the same original ones. But gristmills was alright. You want gristmills now?

JF:Gristmills now.

EM:Alright. Within a half.... Within a mile here there was one.... When I show you, when I take you around there's one there. And then back over here was another one. Over here was another one. Now the water from that gristmill went in one direction. The water from these came down in this pond and so water was used sometimes three or four times see for power because due to your elevation. Well actually the water here all runs to Millsboro Pond and then that goes into the Indian River which is tidewater, see your drainage.
JF:Who would use the gristmill?

EM:Huh?

JF:Who would use the gristmill?

EM:Well, the whole eh, the gristmill's purpose was to grind the corn and wheat to make flour. To grind food for animals and all that. Everybody used it. The way they did in the early period if you taken, say if I taken ten bushel of corn and I wanted it cracked, ground for meal to make hog feed with. Now how did you pay them?

JF:I don't know.

EM:They took a toll.

JF:A toll?

EM:They'd weighed your eh..... Well you cob corn had one toll because you had.... Well just say shelled corn. And if you had five hundred pound of corn there then the scale made out then you would get, well say, well we're just use the illustration of four hundred pound of meal.

JF:It figured it out the difference between the shelled corn would produce in ??????

EM:Yeah, now ear corn was different. It was so many, if you had so many pounds.... See you had a hundred pound of cob corn there was a scale that you could get so many pounds of cracked corn or, you know whatever you needed or meal. It was quite an exchange thing.

JF:What's cracked corn?

EM:Well it's just corn that's eh.... It's a kernel of corn cracked through a machine that just makes it in little lumps we'll say. Cuts it.

JF:And what would a farmer use cracked corn for?

EM:Well, chickens eat cracked that way. For poultry feed and eh it was mostly poultry feed. Small chicks, you know they couldn't swallow whole grain so it would be cracked up and used in feed. And then the fine meal, when you ground it fine for meal well that would be used for eh.... Well they had poultry products, mixed and all like that. I mean your meal was used eh, well I think you better, well that's alright. I think we should get on wheat a little bit now.

JF:You're going to leave corn and go to wheat?

EM:Well leave a space there. Here's what..... Let me tell you what happens. Feed that you fed poultry, hogs, any that type of animal, mostly poultry, turkeys, geese was used eh.... A lot of the feed was used mixed and you mixed your byproducts from you wheat would be bran and middlings. Bran shell was the fiber thing and then, of course, corn you either cracked it or you ground it up in meal. That was the only two sources with that where you ground the whole. And then, of course, now they used to use for cows they'd grind the whole ear up, cob and all. The cob is the center. You know what I'm talking about don't you?

JF:Uh huh.

EM:That would all be ground up and they used a lot of that because your cow needed a little roughage, you know, not a fine and that was ground up and was fed for cows a lots of times, all the time. That was called crushed corn. Your crushed ear corn.

JF:What would actually do the grinding in the gristmill?

EM:Well you had different eh.... There was a grinder in ????? Now this is all water power and your..... Well you had a grindstone too. That's what you ground, yeah it was a grindstone. This wheel was, oh it was four feet in diameter or more. And you had a base. This was stationary and this other had a stone. It was about that thick and it fit on there. Now these stones, the base they had to be picked. They had a pattern. You cut this grooves in here someway. That was the base. Then the top one was the sameway and it had grooves. And then when the corn would go in in the..... Say this was eh..... It had a hopper and here's where your stone.... You had your base stone here and then you had another, your top stone was fastened. Well the corn or whatever you was grinding and they had the center, it would go in the center of this stone, top stone, and then as you turned on the grooves on the were made so. Then the grinding as it come out.... Then it would come out to a certain place on the bottom stone see and that would be eh.... The way you set your weight, the way you moved that top stone determined the fineness or the courseness of the grain you were grinding. You know there was an adjustment there that you lifted it up and that left a little more space between it. See this is your base and this was your top. Well the heavier that on there the finer product you made.

JF:So the closer together the stones were the finer the grind?

EM:Yeah, that's right, that's right. That's the way it worked. Then in order to do it you might say, well how did you get it into the stone? Well in the top stone there was a hole in the top and these grooves were so made in the top stone and the bottom stone so when it turned I think that was an expert job doing that picking. You had to know what you were doing to get that thing to work right. If you didn't you didn't get eh.... That's the way it moved out.

JF:Now picking was cutting the stone?

EM:Cutting the stone suitable for grinding the product, the grains. It had to be picked and sharpened.

JF:When those two stones rubbed together didn't that create heat?

EM:No, no, it didn't.

JF:Didn't go fast enough to create heat?

EM:It was slow. It wasn't..... See you remember this water power. Oh it turned pretty good, but I mean it wasn't like your electric thing you turn on and it goes burr, burr, burr. It would turn slow. I don't know just.... Well the speed of it turned on.... The speed that you turned depended on the amount of water that you let in your flume. See on this water power you had your pond, then you had your eh.... The level of the pond where the water went through had to be lower than the.... Well the power water as it entered the, we'll say a trough or where it entered the water wheel, why it had to be lower than the pond because then that would.... This water pressure is what that really turned the thing, see.

JF:So gravity was used to get the water out of the pond? The wheel was lower?

EM:Well no, no, no. Well no it wasn't eh.... I can show you more. It was level, but the gravity of the heighth of the water above the earth, see this pond your water wasn't.... It was damned. It wasn't just eh.... See you had a dam. You had to have five or six foot heighth. Of course then you had this water pressure and it was all enclosed and then when you opened the gate there see, the pressure come from the bottom of the pond and then that weight of the water you know.

JF:And the water spilling over the wheel then turned.....?

EM:Well it was different.... Yeah one type it would spill over the wheel. But that was the later model it was called eh.... Well wasn't any of it used here. I've seen places where they did use it. But these went through this water wheel. You had your water wheel in here and of course it had to be up. And then when of course..... It run through. And then of course it had to get away too. So it had to be high enough so that the drainage after the water went through the water wheel the excess would leave so it was a pressure. Then it was a pressure back here at this other water that turned the wheel. Water pressure.

JF:Okay and then the wheels were connected to belts?

EM:Yeah. Well you had a shaft and belts. Most of them you had a dry shaft that run from the..... Then you had a belt that would run belts. You had pulleys on this shaft which you would hook to different things you wanted to run. You probably..... I don't know..... The stone I just can't how it hooked up now, but it was the same purpose. I mean a lot of this was connected under the floor of the mill, I mean to a certain point.
JF:The process for grinding flour from wheat was different than the process for grinding corn?

EM:Oh yeah.

JF:Can you describe that process for grinding wheat? Did you ever see that yourself?

EM:Oh yeah. Well let me get me a thinking. Well the process that eh.... The original process, the old process I never seen that. It was done on something similar to the corn stone with some type of burr. But I never seen that. But later on they had what they called roller mills. And the wheat.... Of course on the wheat you have eh.... The shell of the wheat is called bran. Then the first process it went through in a mill, it used to go through, and then that mill over there. And then it had to go through a seive like equipment so the cover of the grain, that's called bran, what we might call the skin of the wheat grain, you know, that's called... Well after it came out it's called bran. It was a fiber and that would separate. Now the interior where you're it was white just like flour is. And that's the difference. And that was soft so the first process of a milling was to flatten the grain or however it was ground and then separate and then it had to be, your bran had to be, it usually went as a separation and then that was the first process. And then it would go through another set after you separated your bran and then you would grind the interior of the grain which would be white. And that would go through a set of a couple of rollers. Then you'd have it go through another equipment which would separate. Then you would get some..... All of the interior of the white grain wouldn't go into the flour. You'd have some coarseness there. So you had a separation. You had flour, you had middlings and you had bran. So after the wheat grain was ground you had three separations.

JF:What are middlings?

EM:Well they're just like, they're coarse. It's a grain. It's just a part of the center of the wheat that doesn't make fine, doesn't grind fine. It's a separation there. That's all I can tell you. It was a byproduct after it went through the equipment. I guess part of the wheat grain would mash up and be real fine like flour. And then with other..... It could be the outer edge of the wheat grain was where the skin was, what you call bran. And then maybe the next coat, after the bran was off, maybe that was the hard part of the wheat grain probably, and that wouldn't make flour so that's what you could call middlings, I guess after it went through it's process. And the center of the wheat would grind fine for flour. So that's what it is. The bran was the cover. Then the things that made the middlings was the other circle around the grain that made it hard. See your bran's soft and that made the cover. Course your grain of wheat is hard, so that's the next coat of the grain of wheat and the flour part is the center part of the wheat.

JF:The second layer, the middlings, was that byproduct used for anything?

EM:Oh yes, it was used in feed. Wasn't used in horse feed or you know that. But it was used for hog feed and poultry feed. It was a very important product in the ???????

JF:Now you said when you brought corn to the gristmill there was a certain number of pounds of meal that would be given in exchange for the pounds of, either cob corn or cut corn. What about for wheat? How was that measured?

EM:It was the same thing. They had a..... Well it was in on the same scale. If you had so many bushel of wheat, I mean if you were taking four or five bushel of wheat and wanted flour, they had a schedule the same way. You'd get so many pounds. If you had a hundred pound of wheat there was a regular scale that was universal. I mean everywhere, you know, every mill. If you carried so much cob corn you could get so much corn meal. A number of pounds in ratio of whatever it was. I don't remember what the eh.... They called that a toll. Toll meant the same as instead of paying so much to have it ground, a toll. That's what the miller kept. That was his part of the profit, I mean for grinding the product. See you would take your whole grain and get a processed product, whether it was flour, corn meal, cracked corn, bran or whatever of your byproduct.

JF:So the toll really was then the charge.

EM:It's a charge.

JF:For the miller.

EM:For the miller, yeah that's right.

JF:Now if you took in five bushels of wheat would the farmer be able to use everything that he got back himself on his own farm or would they have to sell it someone?

EM:No he could get whatever the ratio.... No he didn't have to take eh.... If he only wanted eh.... Well most of the systems was eh..... On your wheat, most people if they taken wheat to the miller on wheat, they'd take it there and most of the time all they wanted would be the flour. Now on corn it was just a little different. Course now here on your corn back in the early, in the beginning, you know you had two different corns. You had one, the cornmeal that you'd use for your own cooking, you know. That mostly was white corn for making cornbread. I don't know several other things. Whatever you could make with corn meal. But cornbread was a staple part just the same as your wheat product flour is today, I mean it was eh.... The reason the white corn, I think I made the statement before, the white corn was milder. The yellow corn had more carotene in it. It was yellow and it had a little, I guess a different, a strong taste. I presume that's what. We never ate much too much corn bread. Lots of times a person would take a certain thing to a miller and he had a chart. Like if you take about ten bushel of corn and you wanted so much flour. I mean if he had so many pounds, you know, he'd give you flour too. The miller kind of exchanged. A lot of people used that, you know, in years back. They used a product to get other things too, you know. But you never got any cash. You taken it.... He might take so many pounds of corn there and he'd want so much cornmeal, then he'd want so much other corn and mix some feed. And maybe he'd get so much bran and things and mix up his hog feed see, or poultry feed. I used to work down there some ?????. I mixed poultry feed. I'd go in there and hand them me order for the mill. This is not, this is pertaining to farming, this is the mill now I'm talking about. But poultry feed I had my own formula. I'd order so many pounds of meal, so many pounds of middlings, so many pounds of bran, maybe so many pounds of oats, ground oats, and then of course the protein. At that time you'd get, eh you could buy meat scrap would come in and you'd mix that up to make your diet for your poultry. Whether it was laying..... Each different, laying egg, laying poultry, I mean laying eggs one hens had a certain diet with certain percentage of protein and fiber. And chick starter had a different protein, a higher protein. And your growing feed had a lower protein.

JF:Now where did all this mixing take place?

EM:Well, first they had mixers yes. But in the early period if you went down here to the a lot of this things was just dumped out on the floor and you mixed with a shovel and then shoveled it back on and fed it. I've mixed a many of them. Then later on they had mixers, I mean you know. What I'm talking..... What I'm speaking about back in the early teens I'm talking about now, you know not after. Oh yeah, they had mixers. As the poultry industry..... And of course you cattle they had, they would always most mix it. But later on they had mixers that you could pour things in. The early ???? back in, oh let's see the '20's. In the '30's they begin to get mixers in the flour mills, you know. That's when the broiler industry started after '23 that's what started the feed business in this area.

JF:Did each farmer have their own special mix that they would put together?

EM:At one time. But then later on, of course, at one time. I knew a fellow, one of the first broiler growers that lived here, he used to drive a horse. His name was Reynolds and he had a horse and wagon. He'd go down here and his formula and he'd mix it how he wanted, mix it with a shovel, put it bags and haul it back to his chicken house. That goes back to the early '20's now. That would be in the early '20's. Yeah I mixed it. I had layers. I had me own formula I used to use and mix down there. Carry my corn down there. I'd get so much meal. I'd mix it up and come back, yeah. I did it with a shovel. But later on why, of course see there wasn't many chickens in them days. If you had a couple hundred laying hens you were the big all. If you had three thousand broilers man you was the big broiler grower. And they were all in separate.... I better not get started on this.

JF:Two thousand broilers was a big grower in the teens?

EM:Well, in the eh...

JF:Late '20's?

EM:No, no, this would be the early.

JF:Early '20's.

EM:See Mrs. Steele, see I think it was '21 or '22. You know about her history?

JF:Uh huh.

EM:She eh, and that's the type of house that the broiler industry started with, single houses. And they'd have twenty-five or thirty in a row.

JF:What's a big broiler grower today?

EM:Oh they could be twenty or thirty thousand.

JF:So we start with two thousand in the early '20's was a big grower and today at twenty, thirty thousand?

EM:Oh yeah, that's just average.

JF:Average grower.

EM:I raised, I mean it depends on eh.... They've changed the houses up. See I haven't been directly, but I think some of these houses will hold, I believe some of them will hold twenty thousand chickens in a single house. They're all big growers. Well you can't mix that up with this now, I mean. You have to take that on something else, today. What yesterday was and what today is. Cause there's so much change.

JF:Is there anything about the mill that we haven't covered that you wanted to cover? Either the sawmill or?

EM:Well there's not much I can tell you, I mean more about the.... Eh, the water-powered sawmill wasn't used, well it's never been used I'd say much since.... The water-powered sawmill hasn't been used much for the late part of the 1800's. Right in there because I was born in 1907 and there wasn't anything then. I never seen anything sawed by water power.

JF:How about if we get on to the development of the Georgetown area here, Stockley area. Can you tell me, I've seen a lot of signs in Delaware about the Dagsboro Hundred or this Hundred or that Hundred and I don't understand what that Hundred means.

EM:Okay, Hundreds is eh.... It's a distinguished boundry for Representatives for the Government of State, of the States. And then also it goes right on up to your Senators and Representatives. The population for voting Hundreds is.

JF:Was that then a hundred people or a hundred families or do you know?

EM:Well, no it was a, I guess... Well, I guess what eh.... I guess to have.... I can't answer. I'm not a politician. But the Hundreds was districts that represented, maybe you'd have in the Government or in your State. That was State or I guess both. As in Sussex County I'm sure that the State was there. And then that was the Representative. And then it also listed where you were located. This particular piece of land. Not just a farm, but as for tax purposes. It was an identification of land and you got deeds and you surveyed out in the Hundred and then when you got your deed it would be this parcel of land or farm or whatever it would be. It was a distinct identification of land I guess you'd call it. A distinct location. And then if eh.... This particular farm here is in Dagsboro Hundred. And when you pay your taxes and things it's listed as that. Georgetown Hundred. So your Hundreds is identification I imagine. And it also eh.... You have to have so many people in a Hundred, so Hundreds is identification of land, rather than.... And then, of course, that represented..... When you go to elections you represented a certain Hundred, you know, which means a community. That's as near as I can get to the.....

JF:So this area is the Dagsboro Hundred?

EM:It was named Dagsboro Hundred after General Dagsboro. And he got this land from eh.... Maybe I can get it here. General Dagsboro during the eh..... There's a monument down to Dagsboro. General Dagsboro during the Revolutionary War was General for the country, you know. I guess it wasn't the United States then, but whatever it was. Anyway he helped right in this area, he helped defeat the British in the Revolutionary War. That's the story I read about it. And he was given eh... I supposed the Government, they gave him this land here, District, and that's the reason it's called Dagsboro Hundred. The reason I know something about it because I had to in getting this thing here, we got all this for identification. And he had a lot of this Hundred. And then that District has always remained that name. Now Georgetown, it's just the Georgetown District. But he got this Grant from the Government the way I understand it. I got more specific on it somewhere, but...

JF:Well how did your family get this farm then? It's been in your family for over a hundred years. Do you know the history of how it came into your family?

EM:Oh we had 18' something. It's been ours for two hundred years.

JF:Two hundred years.

EM:No we got this land came.... It was eh..... I don't how they got it but at one time I had eh.... I have this all down. But it came in eh.... You were.... You could buy. It was sold some way. I don't know what procedure, but I guess you paid so much for it. We had.... I had a piece of paper but I think somebody liked souvenirs one time and it had his signature on it, General Dagsboro's.

JF:You had maybe a deed or something?

EM:Like a deed, yeah a deed like thing. But this territory..... Here's this Dagsboro Hundred. See at that time land in the early, real early periods, when they got Grants and things you streams made a lot of boundries. See you streams made a lot of.... And then, of course, eh... Like I have a stream here that separates. It comes over here and it goes on down and it separates this land from adjacent land. And, of course, the pond over here separates it from the other landowner. So your lowland and streams in the early periods was, where they were available, was the made the boundries of the landowners in some areas. Now in other areas where they wasn't available they were different, you know.

JF:It was easy to take advantage of a natural boundry though that way.

EM:Well yeah it was a permanent. See the same thing water still goes through these streams. I mean it's been ever since then. I mean it was a natural.... They taken the natural water line and of course your drainage. It depended on the way your soil.... Now in some place you couldn't do that. You had your other ways, but I'm talking about right here. Cause the drainage system was there. ????? the water from the other land comes over and makes the stream. See what I mean? And that's the boundry. That's what they used for a boundry in the early periods wherever they were available because they didn't have surveyors. You had etc. and etc.

JF:Now this Dagsboro Hundred is in Sussex County?

EM:Yes.

JF:And Sussex County is very unusual right now in the United States because of it's celebration of Returns Day.

EM:Yeah.

JF:Can you tell me about Returns Day?

EM:During the early period of voting you had your Districts as we know, like we've mentioned. This is Dagsboro. Depends on, I don't know, I'm not familiar how the boundries were formed but Georgetown was a District. Indian River right over on the other.... A lot of these Districts too their boundries was streams. Your normal streams of water made a lot of boundries through the country. I mean particularly Sussex, I mean were around here. See our ancestors landed here and the Indians had this ground. I mean that was the only way you could design a boundry, you know was a stream. That was something permanent nobody could move, you know. So your streams running through country land was used a lot for boundries dividing parcels of land. And that's eh..... Then, of course, when the Hundreds were sort of established that was population and that was what your Representative represented your State Government. It's like I say right over here at this stream that's Indian River Hundred. This is Dagsboro Hundred. And then you go right up here just before we.... You know where that Correction Center is, I mean that..... Well up here about a couple miles there's another and there's a road boundry. Well then you in Georgetown Hundred. There's a road in there makes a boundry. But I think there is.. Maybe it's that ditch or something in there. I don't know. But your streams generally were important boundries in the early period.

JF:So each Hundred had it's own Representative in State Government or so many Hundreds had a Representative in the government?

EM:Your Representative depended on I think, yeah each Hundred, and then, of course, your population. I'm no politician, but your number of Representatives depends on, I think is your population growth today. Yeah each Hundred had a Representative. You know, say that's Indian River Hundred and this is Dagsboro Hundred and then right on before we get Georgetown. You get into Georgetown Hundred and I don't know what over on the other way what they call them, but those are the ones I'm familiar with. But that's the way the County and State, as far as I know the State it was the same way.

JF:So in Sussex County when you voted in the election Sussex County celebrates Returns Day.

EM:Yeah. Returns Day, you know of course, you got to think about communications. How did we get communications back there in a number of years, back in the 1800's?

JF:We certainly didn't have telephones.

EM:That's right. Returns Day is when people throughout the County, Georgetown's the County Seat, and Returns Day that's when all the politicians and the people that was running for election, that's when they went there to find out the total votes and who won. The Returns it used to be a pretty big day, I think. But that was..... The people would go there to find out how the election went. Not just county, but nationallly.

JF:How would they know? What would go Returns Day? How would you get notified who won locally and nationally?

EM:Well locally, see each District had whatever it's record was of voting pro or con. And then they went in to the County in Georgetown. So all your returns vote, Indian River District, Dagsboro voting, see you had the ballot system and then those ballots was all sealed and they would be carried in to Georgetown which was the County Seat and then they'd be tallied. And, of course, that was in the early period. Of course the telephone, why after they got the telephone after they'd gone ahead and counted the ballots in each District they'd call in, you know. But the center was Georgetown. And then that's where, say if I was running for Sherriff of Sussex County, well all the voting Districts of the whole County, that'd be the center and then you'd get your total there. And the same way with any State office or Government office.

JF:Would the names then be posted somewhere for the people to come and read?

EM:No, I don't think eh..... There wasn't any posted. No nothing eh..... To my knowledge nothing ever went from the elections that would give what each individual would get. It was go as a win or lose proposition. Now if it was a State thing, I mean a Government thing then, of course, those totals would be shipped to..... I don't know much about politics but I do know all Sussex County would go into Sussex County in one unit and then they'd be tabulated and then that would be probably sent on up with the State, any State office that was running. And then that total would be sent up to the State center, like your Senators and Representatives or anybody that was running for a State office. And then all that would be sent up to, each District, voting District, would be, whatever the tally was, would be sent up there. And then after these tallies, these boxes these votes were in they were sealed and then they were carried and placed in the Sussex County Courthouse in Sussex County and then lots of times somebody would want a recount. If it was a close election, you know, they'd get a recount. They'd count them again. Where an election was four or five thousand votes and not over two, three hundred difference in the number, you know. Yeah they have really called recounts and given count again in a close election. The, of course, your State things. That's the County and, of course, you State went on up to Dover. I thinks that's where the State... See you have your Governors, and you have your Lt. Governors, and your have your Treasurers, they were State. I don't know whether there's anything else. But I mean you have your Representative in Congress and the State Senator. As I say I'm not too, but I do know that's what Sussex, that's the way it's tallied up.

JF:Did you go into Georgetown on Returns Day.

EM:Oh, I never was eh.... Well I'll tell you Returns Day at one time they had a parade and, of course, a lot of people got a little happy, you know.

JF:It was a good celebration.

EM:Yeah that's right. It was a good celebration. They'd have, not now, but I used to hear they used to have fights. Well I could hear my family talk about it, you know. It was a big day then back there a hundred years ago or seventy-five.

JF:What did your family tell you they did? They had parades.....

EM:Well here's what generally it was a parade. Here's what they did. The winners and losers all got in and rode together. That's right. They'd have there, well in the beginning they use their, I guess with a horse and wagons. Well, I don't know what. Of course now they did they usually get eh..... When they have one now they get a convertible car and say certain eh... It would depend if they was Senators they'd all have a car for them and for the State Representatives of the County. I think the County offices and then the State offices, I don't think Kent and New Castle on the County offices don't participate. I don't know. Now the local people, because it's a County thing. But all the County offices, like the courthouse and your Legislatures and Congressmen they get in a car and they'll... Get in these Cadillacs. The leasing people let them have them. They have a nice parade. And then, of course, the big thing, you know, is the roast ox.

JF:Pardon.

EM:Roast ox.

JF:The roast ox. Tell me about the roast ox.

EM:The roast ox you'd get a young ox, say a couple hundred, I don't know larger than a calf. They'd, I'm not too much on just what.... Anyway they'd set up a frame and then they'd run.... They'd have a, we'll call it a pole, I guess. I don't know whether it was wood or ???? Anyway say this was the length, say this here's the body of your ox, you know. Now what I mean killed with all the internal organs removed.

JF:All dressed.

EM:All dressed. What you call a dressed ox. I guess the outer skin, the hide, would be removed too. You'd have nothing but the meat and the bone. And then they'd have this pole like, and then they'd take ahold of it and then they'd build this fire underneath of it. And this pole had to be where they could turn the ox see. And they would just have that in there and this fire till they roasted this ox. And then people would come along and they'd serve, cut slices off, sandwiches. Course always, I guess they always had a little spirits and maybe washed part of it down. I mean not furnished. But that's what roast ox was. I never ate any of it. Course you had to be a professional. They had people that'd do it. And all this smoke burning, you know. I think they'd start that darn.... I don't know how.... I don't know, I never taken part. As I say they always got happy too, you know. It'd taste good, you know, if it was raw you know. You understand me? But that roast ox was a tradition. It was just in Sussex County as far as I know. It was a thing in with Returns Day.

JF:Did Returns Day bring any national politicians here? The locals....

EM:Well, no. It was all State. Now your Governor and Senators and things, yes. But they'd all be there. The thing in the parade that was interesting the elected and the defeated all rode in a car together. I mean, you know, like they've all made up. You know that was the purpose. If you was defeated or if you was elected you'd ride together in this... People in these automobiles. Course I guess in the beginning it was horse and wagons or carriages or dearborns. I mean, you know, whatever that. But now they use cars and they usually get cars that you ride with no top, convertibles they use now.

JF:I would imagine a lot of speeches were give on that day.

EM:Yeah, they had a program. There was a program there. As I say I'm not too familiar with it. The Governor would, well all the eh, I don't think they ever had.... I'm not just too close to the fine part of that. I do know all the elected officials and I don't know whether the defeated officals, I never took too much in that because I never cared too much about it. I mean, I used to look at the parade maybe. But there were speeches made and I don't know. I can't answer that correctly, just what the procedure on it was definitely. Whether there would be a special speech would come down. The program part of it I can't answer. I've not been close enough to it to make your correct answer. But I do know the main purpose of it was to get the final returns of election day locally, countilly and nationally. And that's when they got the finals because you didn't have radio and TV and all that and all your other things. The telephone was all you had and, of course, it taken a lot of time to get the counts and all. So it'd be the next day, you know.

JF:What can you tell me about the growth of the community here? Is this part of the Stockley Community?

EM:Yeah. Well this community, Stockley Community here, is
eh.... It's really eh..... Stockley Community had just about everything. I mean in the beginning it was eh....
Alright, let's see. I think we have to.... I don't know... What do you have? We need to talk a little bit about communications and transportation or whatever you want. We probably need to talk about communities.

JF:We've got about twenty minutes of tape left. You'd better do that now.

EM:I think, the reason I say this in agriculture community was... Well, I'll give an illustration. You got it on now.

JF:Uh huh.

EM:Well don't turn it on right now. The three things that help to make communities would be the schoolhouse and the church and most of these communities most of the time had a country store. And then some of them of course like the Stockley Community here of course also had the grist mill which is an important part of a community. You know a place to grind the feed and flour and etc. And then you had another thing that was in a community. This is Stockley Community I'm speaking of. We had a person that made molasses. You grew you cane and you'd carry it there and he'd split the leaves offen it and it'd be cut. And then they had these rollers, so then you'd get the juice out of it. Then he'd cook the juice and would make molasses. And that was part of the family, well the family garden. You know it's a product that you use. There was two things. I mean that's what Stockley had. Another thing, they had the blacksmith shop. And that was very important because the blacksmith shop come to repairing.... Well your transportation then was horse, horse and animals. Horses had to be shoed sometimes and trimmed. And also you equipment was all on iron wheels, you carriages, your buggys. And of course lots of times would slip and they..... So the blacksmith shop was very important in keeping the community rolling, moving or whatever what word you want to use in there - transportation. If a wheel broke you got it fixed.

JF:In your lifetime, when you were younger, did you go to the blacksmith?

EM:Yeah, oh yeah.

JF:Why would you go there? What would you need to do?

EM:Well alright. I drove a horse and carriage to school, five miles. Lots of times your rims on your wheel would get eh.... The metal would either expand and the sand would get in there and it would start to crack. Well then what the blacksmith would do, you'd take that wheel in and he'd take the rim off and then he would shrink it. He'd go around and measure it. He had a pull... I don't know what the name of the thing. Anyway it was a thing to rollover, you know, get the length of it. I don't know what the name of it was. Then he'd put this in the furnace and heat that. And then he had equipment there and then he'd shrink that. Then he'd take it one the anvil and flatten it down. Then he'd heat that rim. Put it in that furnace, make it a certain temperature. I mean that it expanded. Then he'd put that.... Drop that over the rim, the wooden rim, of the wheel. Then he'd have some water upon it and cool it down. And then as that metal began to shrink and pull then that would tighten the wooden and spokes of the wheel. So the blacksmith was very important in transportation of everything. I mean if you had something that got broke, I mean farm and everything. They played a very important part in transportation if one of these things got broke. Of course I say your gristmill provided the food, grinding it for the animals and ???? and etc. So they were two important things. The sawmill was another. Let's see now what else was it?

JF:Well let's continue with the blacksmith shop. What did that look like?

EM:Well it wasn't much to look at. I mean it was rough. Well it was open. You had to have doors because you had all this fire going there which you used coal, a certain type of coal, to heat, to get this fire. You had a.... Well, you had, let's see. Say this was your furnace here burning. And of course you had your b???? and then you had a canopy would come over that. And then you had a pipe that went up through the roof and that would let the heat, you know, go out from there. And then you place whatever metals you had in here. And you had a ballast, a thing that would blow and that went in through the bodin (?) and when you got your coal in there you had to blow it and that would make it heat. And you'd place your metal in there, whatever you wanted done, get it red and then you move it over on the anvil and you had a big hammer. And then you would do whatever you wanted to do, make it wider or shorter or shrink it or weld it together. I mean that was the purpose of the way the blacksmith shop worked.

JF:What were some things that you took in besides wheels to the blacksmith shop?

EM:Well anything that would break, a certain type of metal now. It had to be a certain type of metal that they could work with. It was iron. It wasn't a cast iron.
Cast iron wouldn't work. But it had to be a certain metal. A type of metal that would, you could weld together, heat and beat and make it smaller or shrink it or make it larger see when it was red. When it was heated it'd turn right red, be right red. And you could beat that to any shape or anything you wanted. It was a certain type of metal. It was iron. I know cast iron you can't do it, but that's something that breaks easy. But I don't know just what the metal was called. I mean it's a iron, I can't eh....

JF:What farm tools do you remember having that were made of iron that you'd have to get repaired at the blacksmith?

EM:Well the most things I ever had fixed was what would come from - a cutting knife - well we'd say would be on the reaper, the mower, any blades that eh, plow shares. I mean anything that... Most thing that I ever had was things you used that had a blade like a mower or a reaper where the knife would break, you know, when you was cutting. And they could take that particular section of the blade off and they could weld that and weld that back see. And then they could put your blade, your little blades back. Depends on what type of equipment you were using you know. Well anything that eh..... That's about the only thing I.... Then sometimes you would, now you had a certain type of plow share, steel. Most of things you could do this with had to be a steel metal, not cast iron. Not cast iron 'cause it would be steel, a steel product. I mean, you know, I don't know if.... You could weld them back. I've heard tell of people who'd take a plow share. Now your plow share, all the plows and things that turned the mower they were made of steel-like metal. But not all the shares were. You could get a cast iron share. But they were cheaper. You could use them, but if you hit a stump, bop your point would be broke off, so you had to have good clear land. You know no roots or stumps, you know.

JF:Then if you broke the point on a cast iron there was no way to fix it?

EM:No, no, you can't weld cast iron. It has to be a steel type of product, a steel. I mean I'm not familiar with metals, but I mean, you know, if you have steel of something, it's strong and then you can fix and weld to. But cast iron you can't. It's just eh.... I guess it's something like eh take a loaf of bread why you can fix it together, but some of the rest of it gets old, the crumbs or something, you know you can't do much with it. Or biscuits. But I'm not familiar with that. But that was the two types of metals that was used in the farm machinery.

JF:What was your favorite place to go as a young boy to watch? The opportunities of what was going on in the blacksmith shop and the grist mills and the saw mills, to me that would sound like something that would be fascinating for a young person who would want to watch all the activities. Did you have any time to watch or were you too busy with the farm?

EM:Well, oh yeah, you could eh... It wasn't ...... Let's start something about harvest because there's where you had your activity and where the communities, people worked together to harvest the grain. I mean there's where you burn most of your time. That was interesting. When you went to thresh your wheat, particularly grains that were used eh.... Steam engines, things like wheat, soybeans. Well then I used to grow clover seed. That's another product. We used to grow another product called cowpeas and buckwheat. I think that's about the list that's grown around this area that I can recall right now. And they all was eh... What happened you had eh... Well Stockley was very fortunate. Right across the field here and up the road here there was a, at one time there was a stationary sawmill. That means where nothing moved, it was made permanent, you know. Also the man had a clover huller, which all these was run by steam engines. I mean not separate engines but steam power we'll say. And the clover huller was a type of equipment that would do clover seed you know. I don't know if whether you know or not, but they're about the size of a pinhead. You know and it has a little head on it. And they culled that. So I used to grow a lot of clover seed and that was one type of where community... Everybody in the community had this or that and when it come threshing time the community went over and helped. Well I'll help you do yours and maybe you'd spend two weeks of doing nothing of going just around the community working helping eachother. That's the thing that is not today. But that's the way the communities worked when it come to even planting things. Communities, people worked together and helped eachother. Nobody got any money, they just helped do it. If they had a crop they went on and helped them harvest it you know. And then anything that eh.... Of course the farmer's wife they always furnished the dinner you know. That was a big chicken, dumplings, etc. meal. And there was a lot of fellowship there too, I mean working together, you know. And you had to have - when you had these steam engines you had to have another person that had to haul water to give this engine. And we ususually, of course here you usually had to pump it, but most of the times we'd go down to a pond or stream. We'd have a.... That was one man's job. When I was growing up, they got so they could raise a bucket of water, you'd go down and you'd have about three barrels in wagon and you'd go in there and fill these barrels up and put a bag. Then you'd go over and fill the tanks up and go back and get some more. So that was my first job. Lifestype then was everybody was closer together then they are now. They worked together, helped eachother. Well they had to I mean. So the community, now you don't need that because you.... Alright you take your wheat. Well you got one man up there on the combine and he's doing all the work. To do the same thing when you had the threshers you had about, oh you had to have four wagons, a man on them. See they unloaded two at a time. And then you had to have about four or five people in the field. Well you had four or five wagons, or sometimes more than that depending on the distance, and they'd be loading it grain, what it was, on the wagon whether it was wheat or rye or anything. And then they'd haul it up to.... See your thresher and your steam engines and all that they'd come in and they'd line your.... It had a long belt and they'd stay and that was permanent. So then you haul the grain to the unit. And then you usually had a wagon on each side and I had to have two people down there. In the beginning they measured it and you paid the man so much a bushel for the threshing. And they'd fill these half of bushels and they'd dump it in and it had a tally box. Grain came out say in here, this grain was coming out in here and it was in a box in here. And then you'd pull it up and it would register. That would be a half a bushel. And then you'd put another one and then you'd dump in a bag, you know. And then.... And so that was eh, it taken two people there and then one to hold the bag you know. Then they'd pile it up and then after they got the harvest done, I mean, or the days work complete, well then they all loaded it on wagons. The farmer had a storage and then they'd pour the grain out in the storage bin. Most of the time it was a barn that they had a box with eh.... Everybody had it different. It depends on ?????? Yeah, that was eh... Everybody had a good time. Oh, I got a story to tell you on that. I don't know, I wasn't too old. I may of been fifteen. Course I was working. But we had eh.... How was it now? Oh, I went in and sat down to the table. I think there one end of the table.... Sometimes in these threshing events maybe they didn't have enough table room to serve all at one time, they'd have you know second terms. But anyway I went in and there was a plate. Well then the lady of the house she come took my plate. And of course she thought I was somebody just got up. I sit there awhile, so I got up and walked out. Boy I got teased about my plate for a long time. I guess I was maybe fourteen. I didn't make any complaint. I had my place and I laid there awhile and I didn't get any so I got up and walked out. I didn't eat nothing, you know. I got carried on about that. Oh Lord that was throwed at me for a long time, "Watch your plate now boy. Watch your plate".

JF:The people who had the threshing machines were.... Each farmer didn't have their own?

EM:Oh, no, no, no. Your threshing machine, your steam engine that was owned by one individual. And he had his areas that he worked in and that was his occupation. Or he may have farmed some a little bit too. But different areas.... I know a fellow lived right over here. He had three different things. But down in the Lewes, Rehoboth area that was a great wheat area. And he used to go all the way down to Rehoboth. He had a route that he went with farms and be down there. Well it depended on how the weather was, you know, maybe three, four weeks threshing wheat.

JF:Now did his sons, did he have sons that worked with him, or did he depend on the farmers?

EM:Well yeah, the one that I knew mostly didn't. Yeah his father had one and he had one. But see they was eh.... In this particular area, yes. I don't know about other areas. They had different.... His father had a thresher and he followed him and he had a thresher, I mean. Course they had - this individual in this community we had soybeans and that was an individual unit for threshing, we'll call it. You had to have another individual unit for clover seed and he had to have another unit for wheat. So he had three different types of threshers. Of course here it wasn't much wheat. As I stated awhile ago he used to take his steam engine and go down to Lewes, Rehoboth that was a wheat area. This land right in through here, matter of eight or ten mile or mostly eight miles, it was sandy and that wasn't too good for wheat. Wheat needs a little more solid ???? soil. Then, of course, you got all types of soil up around Georgetown. That's the highest point in the State. The water drains four ways and a certain area of that is just nothing but mud. Wet, you know you don't have any drainage, you know. It's the highest point in the county. Water runs three ways. Water this way, comes on down to the Indian River and the other time it goes all over the lands of the Chesapeake Bay. This one goes down to the ocean, you know and the Rehoboth Bay and that way.

JF:Is there anything we didn't cover today that you want to get into before we run out of tape?

EM:Three things that I think is important to your farm communities is eh.... Transportation is one of them. I guess we've covered that. I think we have to, community. Communities made what.... The areas in the county was sort of centered around communities. And in communities you had your church, you had your school and you had your, oh most of the time was country store and that's the three things that made communities. And now in the beginning see we've had three things of transportation through the state. The first was a stagecoach which I don't know if you ever, probably you already know this, but as you go through Dover about State Street or in some of these towns. You got it in Millsboro. You know what that means.

JF:No what does it mean?

EM:Well State Street well first there was a State Road that run from Wilmington, I think it was on up to Wilmington, but I know it goes through Dover to Selbyville or down to the Maryland line, and that was called the State Road. That's where your State Road was a means to.........